S6 Ep 2 Full Podcast
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Tom Kaden: Welcome back to the Someone To Tell It To Podcast. So good to have you with us today here in season six, which is so hard to believe that we're actually in season six. Thank you for journeying with us. We've just had so many tremendous guests over the years and each and every conversation we've learned something new.
Today's conversation was just a lot of fun, but it was also very, very serious as we talked with another man who is embarking upon a very similar mission in a lot of ways of just giving individuals, all human beings permission to feel. And that was extensively what we talked about today. One of the things that we are reminded of all the time is that one of the best ways to give other people permission to feel is simply being vulnerable ourselves.
And so in this conversation, Ken is very vulnerable, sharing some experiences from his childhood about what some of the messages. Felt like to him that he received as a child and how that manifested itself to him as an adult. So here is what our guest today, Ken Mossman has written about himself.
Michael Gingerich: I'm here to create thunders of men who willingly and joyfully take responsibility for their world. I partner with men, visionaries, mapmakers, and iconoclasts to grow their presence, sharpen their focus, and uplevel their leadership. We also work on relationships because no man with any concern about his world goes it alone.
He needs to develop his awareness of himself and others, his empathy and his capacity to see and take responsibility for his vision, his values, and the impact he has. We get down in the trenches and work on emotional literacy, fluency, and flexibility. We explore the light, the shadow, and everything in between.
Ken does other things too. One of which is to host a podcast of his own. And we have had the privilege of, of having two conversations with Ken on his podcast, Mojo for the Modern Man, which will air later this year. So today, we're so glad to talk with Ken.
Tom Kaden: Well, Ken, welcome to the Someone To Tell It To podcast. We're just so grateful to have you with us today.
Ken Mossman: Yeah, thank you. I'm delighted to. I am. I'm, I'm, I'm I'm thrilled. Really, really been looking forward to this, so very, very happy to be here with y'all.
Tom Kaden: Yeah. Well, for all of our listeners, we were on Ken's podcast just a few weeks ago, and I don't think that interview has went live just yet, but we're looking forward to sharing that with the world.
It was our first time where we were ever in a two-part episode where we were interviewed back to back. And we just did a really deep dive around a lot of things that we care deeply about through some of the Celtis work and our lives personally, and we just had a delightful conversation, so we're really looking forward to having Ken with us today.
Ken Mossman: Yeah, thank you. That, that was good fun too.
Tom Kaden: Well, Ken, let's start off with some fun for those who are, are viewing on, on who are not simply listening on audio, but are also watching the episode, you'll notice over Ken's left and right shoulders that he's got guitars. Ken, why don't you talk a little bit about your guitars?
Ken Mossman: Okay. So for those, for those listening who are guitarists, you, you all already quote unquote get it, but there's a little bit of a backstory. So when my son. I had dabbled in guitar a little bit when I was, when I was a late teen and, and young adult, but never much by way of, of seriousness. And the thing ended up in an old acoustic that I think cost me 99 bucks at Sam Ash Music in New York City.
Oh gosh. Back in the, the late seventies. Anyway, a thing ended up in, in closet after closet, and we, as we moved from place to place. But my son, when he was about starting when he was about seven, he said, they said that he wanted a guitar. Now, I never asked him if he wanted to play the guitar, but he wanted a guitar anyway.
I, I wasn't gonna get him one until we went to a a, a, a music store and he, he could get a, a, a, a feeling for, you know, sitting and holding it and what the strings would feel like under his fingers. When he is approaching his ninth birthday, he finally says, okay, daddy, I'm ready. You know, let's go, let's go to the store.
I really want a guitar. And we go to the store. He sits with this small nylon string acoustic, you know, kiddy version. And I say, Mike, hi. You know, I I I, I haven't played in a long time. I forget everything. Would, it, would, would, would it be fun if I bought new strings for my guitar that was sitting in the closet?
I don't think he even knew that, that I had one. You know, and, and we learned together and he was like, oh yeah, that, that, that, that would be great. And the joke in the family is that once we got home with his guitar. He, he, he, he never picked it up, but I picked it up and I never put it down. So one thing led to another that, that acoustic was long gone.
I, I, I gifted it to a friend. Really dug in, started taking lessons, and e even writing songs at one point had a band that was built all around my own original song didn't last very long. It disbanded, which is what bands do. And yeah, if you would ask me when I started pick up that guitar, if I would be, you know, fronting a rock band, doing my own original songs, I would've thought you were crazy.
But another thing that happened was I, I, I started putting these things together. I started building them electrics. And so I've built 10. Electric guitars, and, you know, they all get, they all get playtime some more than others. But the things on the wall and there, there's, there's a, there's a couple of cases in front of my desk, which you can't see.
There's a bunch downstairs. They come out and play. There's something about, there's something about having my hands on something that, that, that I, that I made that is pretty darn magical. And that, so it's, so it's an interesting thing. It's like, I, I, I, I, I, I, and I'm probably a better assembler of guitars, songwriter and lyricist than I am a player or a singer.
But but what I love is that, you know, these things that I, you know, built and put together and built and wired, et cetera. I can, I can use these art pieces to make other art, which is really fun.
Tom Kaden: Well, one of the questions that we love to begin all of our conversations with is just to learn a little bit more about who you are for all of our listeners.
So maybe if you could just take us back, just tell us a little bit about yourself, where you grew up how that shaped who you are today. And also if you'd like to do even a deeper dive into music and how you have grown to love it.
Ken Mossman: Yeah. Well, you might have to stop me if I go off on tangents 'cause Good.
As I just proved I can't. So grew up in New Jersey. My, my earliest, my, my very earliest memory and, and it's vivid is standing on the patio. I, I suppose you would call it, at 69 Devonshire Road in Cedar Grove, New Jersey. My mother was pregnant with my younger sister. So I was about three years old.
And I have this vivid memory of it, it was morning, you know, it was morning. I have this, this vivid memory of standing on that patio and, and, and reaching out and touching my mother's belly, you know, so, so that's my earliest memory. We stayed in that house. And I remember her, I remember Ellen, my, that's my youngest sister.
I remember my mom and dad coming home with with Ellen, which I think probably rocked my world more than I, more than any three year old could realize, you know, because now I'm no longer the baby of the family. But we stayed in that we stayed in that house until I was in the second grade. Moved to, moved to the town next door, Verona, New Jersey, where which is where I think of myself as really having grown up.
So in Verona, New Jersey about a half mile west of Manhattan and, you know suburbia, you know, suburbia I was a sensitive kid and n n not the greatest student in the world. I. I, I had a, a, shall we say, I, I had a challenging, I had a challenging relationship with education until, until my college years when I, when I, when I found out that no, actually, I, I love this learning thing because I'm at choice about what I'm, what I'm studying and what I'm, what I'm what I'm interested in.
Yeah, it's a big, such a big difference. Such a big difference. And I'm trying to pick out specific instances from childhood, but, you know, there's nothing, there's nothing that's, that's, that's, that's jumping right now. We were, you know, we were looking back, I realized we were, you know, we were a fairly well to do family.
Something I, of, of course as a kid you don't realize at the time. But we really wanted for nothing. We were, I. You know I, I, I think privileged in so many ways. We, my mother was the she was the cultural locus and cruise director, family cruise director. So being so close to New York City, you know, we did the Broadway, we, we, we went to see Broadway shows and we sampled all, all sorts of different cuisines.
So, and, and we went on, you know, we went on family vacations, you know, couple of times a year. My, we where my, my dad put me on skis when I was two and a half. That had an enormous impact on, on my, on my trajectory. Really hasn't it, it, it still has an enormous impact on my tra trajectory. You know, all of that, all of that sampling of of different cultures and different cuisines and the traveling to different places for, for vacations. You know, went, went to the, this World's Fair and that's world, that World's Fair. I remember the, the 60, it was a 64 World's Fair. I have vivid memories of that. And for those who are, are of the age and were there will remember the, the, the cars that drove into the ponds there and had the propellers on the back that the, the the amphibious cars and this ride called the World of Tomorrow that flew over.
You know, there was a flyover of, of the New York City area at night. You know, almost the, there's lots, lots of rich imagery in there that I, that I really latched onto. You know vacations at the Jersey Shore on the, on the coast of Maine. Those were, those are the big ones. You know, Jersey Shore and Coast of Maine.
Michael Gingerich: So, how has, this is fas fascinating, this, this rich cultural heritage that you have and the opportunities that you were given by your, by your parents to, to sample it all. Your, you, you also mentioned, I mean, we can see now where, where a lot of perhaps your artistic bent has come from or how that's been informed, which I think is tremendous.
You also mentioned being very sensitive. Can you say more about that and how that has informed the work that you're doing today, how that informs your whole life as, as you grew and, and matured?
Ken Mossman: Yeah. Yeah. It's such a big question, Michael. Wow. So. I'm gonna, I'll start with this. So, I, I, I always felt deeply, you know, I always felt deeply, which I, in many ways I saw as a flaw, you know being a sensitive kid, being an emotional kid, for those, for, for, for those, with any experience with the, the, the system of the Enneagram you know, dyed in the wool four type four special till the cows come home, let me tell you.
But it, it, it, it, it created a lot a lot of challenges 'cause I was in places where it seemed, including, including school, including the educational system, public educational system. I was I was in places where it seemed like it wasn't okay to feel. You know, and, and of course that doesn't help one who's, who's extremely sensitive. I was also, you know, I was also told in no uncertain terms by my family that I was quote unquote too sensitive. And I hear this from a lot of of people who, who who grew up as, as sensitive souls. So it was as if there was, I, I assumed that there was something wrong with me because of the degree to which I, I felt and continue to feel, you know, now, now I see it as a, as actually a gift.
And even though this is an overused word, I'll use it anyway, you know, a gift and a superpower. But I really saw it as a liability, really saw it as a liability as a kid, again, which was, didn't enable me to turn it off. So, And, and then, and and, and also, even though I think as a younger, you know, really young kid, you know, 5, 6, 7 years old, I was very outgoing, made friends, you know, like that [fingers snap] when, when we would go to the beach and go to different places, you know, I would, I, I would, I would, I would pick up friends. And that, and that changed later on. I, I really, I really moved more inside myself as as a, as a, as a tween, as a teen, and even as a young adult. And
the, I am looking here for, for words, gimme a moment. One thing that it, that it did do, which of course I didn't really recognize at the time, was that it enabled me to form really deep relationships which I think in, in deep significant relationships and, and, and some of those people I'm still, I'm still very much connected with, you know, their dear, dear friends and dear.
And they continue to be dear, dear friends, you know, from very, from, from very early, very early in life. So I'm really, there's, there's a lot there to be grateful for. Yeah. I don't know if I answered all the different parts of that question, so you may have to ask some of it again.
Tom Kaden: Yeah. Well, we'll have to do some follow up questions to your response there, because I just actually looked over at Michael with a big smile on my face because that is our journey as well.
I mean, we've had so many instances where we've been made to feel as if maybe we feel things too deeply. And we've had that same comment kinda lobbed our way that we're too sensitive. So I'd just love to ask you, where, where do you think that that phrase comes, comes from?
Ken Mossman: It's a great question, and my first, and perhaps most irreverent answer is it comes from people who can't handle handle comes from people in a culture that can't handle sensitivity, that that has a hard time with feeling, that tends to, in many ways, pathologize emotion. So you know, that, that, that leans hard into reason and and, and logic that in many ways I said can't handle that in many ways.
I'm gonna say fears a fear actually fears feeling or allowing feelings in, I mean, think about, think about the way we operate in the, in the culture. There are, there's no shortage of people who, in order to feel like the only place they'll let themselves feel is in a, is in the in front of a TV set or, or in, in, in a darkened theater.
You know?
Tom Kaden: Or in a therapy. Or in a therapy office.
Ken Mossman: Or, or in a or, or in a, or in a therapeutic space. Yeah. Or with a coach, et cetera. So, so yeah, I kind, I kind, I kind of put that in the same, on the same, in the same bucket as again, from the irreverent side, like this notion of the, the idea of premature ejaculation.
Well, premature to what, you know, too sensitive compared to what, you know, what does that. I think if I, and of course if I, you know, if I had, if I had, if I only, if I knew now, if I knew then what I know now, you know I, I can imagine upon hearing that, you know, well, you're just too sensitive that my response, my response would be, well, let's talk about that too sensitive compared to what, you know, where's the, where's your data here?
Where, where's the data? So, yeah,
Michael Gingerich: I, yeah, I, I'm just trying to form words or, or, or a question, you know, to, to follow again, to continue following up on this, because I think it's, I think we both believe this is very significant that the notion that emotion is bad that, that showing emotion or feeling deeply is somehow wrong.
What do, do you have any theories as to where that, where does that come from? Why is that a, so often a common cultural belief?
Ken Mossman: Yeah. It's an important, it's an important question and not just for someone who's being, you know, sitting in an interviewee's chair. I think it's an important question for the, the, the, the culture to be asking itself.
Again, I have a lot of, I have a lot of opinions about where all of that comes from, but I, I, I, I do know that, that culturally, no, we are, there is an attachment to this notion that somehow or other we are in control, control exists, et cetera, that we as human beings are, are somehow in control, including in control of the people around us, the people in our organizations, the people the, the, the, the people who govern us and, and, and the people we choose to govern. You know, that in some ways we can control their the human system that they are. And one of the, and I think one of the frustrating things about emotion and for, in, in, in the context of, of of, of a control of a, of a culture that is enamored with the idea of being able to control or being in control.
The illusion is that emotions don't give a rat's ass about control. No. We feel what we feel when we're feeling it and, and we can try and reason our way out. But that, that, that reasoning. It might work for a little bit, but it doesn't make the emotion go away. It might, it might, it might cause it in some way, shape or form to, to sit in the backseat for a while.
But eventually it's gonna find, it's gonna find its way to the surface in either a useful healing way or, or in a, in a distorted perhaps even hurtful or downright dangerous way. So I think, I think we have a lot of a lot of work to do culturally in that regard. And that, and that's, you know, that's one of the reasons I'm thrilled to be talking with the two of you because, you know, the, from, from my experience of our conversations up until now, I.
You know I, I don't, I I don't wanna use the words, you get it in a way that's like, oh, other people don't get it. That's, that's not what I, that's not what I mean. But you are, there's a, there's a willingness, there's an openness to invite, to experience, to witness, you know, which is one of the things that I know you do to, you, you, I can talk to, you two do extraordinarily well. And, and, and that's something that you've found the power in witnessing, because I think, again, you know what, what's one of the most powerful things that we can do as, as human beings, is that we can witness other human beings in their pain, in their joy, in their sadness, in their despair.
In their, everything across the emotional range, including we can, you know, we can, we can, we can witness them in their hatred, you know, we could witness them in their, in their, in their violence. You know, we can, we, we have the capacity to witness all of this if we are willing. And there's something about, I just mentioned hatred and violence, of course.
And, you know, as listeners you might be going, whoa, you know, but there's something about being willing to witness that. Now I want to, I want to contrast that with acting out, which is what we culturally conflate those things with, you know, hatred and violence. We conflate that with, with acting out. I'm not con, I'm not saying that we should condone acting out, but it's really useful to develop the capacity to, to witness someone because those.
Where does, where does violence come from? Well, it comes from a deep well of pain, you know? And if, and if we're not willing to witness that pain that eventually leads to that violence, then we'd better be prepared to, to, to face the violence. 'cause we will witness that if we're not willing to witness pain.
Tom Kaden: This, yeah. This is such a great conversation particularly for men, but for all human beings. And we often call ourselves just permission givers here at someone to tell, to just giving people permission to feel that that there's nothing shameful about the feelings that you feel. I mean, each of us are, are human beings, and we have, we have deep, we we're deep wells of feeling lots of different things.
So I wanted to ask you one question and then I want to ask a follow up to that question. And the, the first question is just as you reflect back to hearing those comments about being too sensitive, Could you think of like one or two specific moments where that happened and, and kind of what happened in the scene?
And then also how did it manifest itself as you've grown up? Because I'm thinking about those who maybe haven't always had permission to feel and how it has manifest itself in maybe unhealthy or destructive ways.
Ken Mossman: Hmm, hmm, hmm. I have an a again, I have this, I have an, I have an image of a dinner at our kitchen table.
And,
and in all honesty, I can't remember how it even came up. But I must have been expressing my feelings about something or very visibly emoting. In some way, shape or form. And I'm, and I'm gonna say it was probably, you know, tween or teen or junior high, early high school. Probably not later on, because I think in some ways I tried to, I, I attempted not, I, I didn't do a very good job of it, but I, I, but I attempted later on to, to, to somehow harden myself.
It didn't go well. But I, I re, I remember my, my older sister was there, so it was probably more tween. And, and, and I just remember hearing from someone over at, at at sitting at the table well, you're just, you're just too sensitive. And, and, and, and I didn't have the, I didn't have the sophistication, you know, to do again, what I, what I said I, I would probably do now.
But I remember it. It, it, it, it's, it stung, you know, it, it stung. And you're gonna have to ask me another part of the question. Again, Tom, because that's really all, that's all I've got on that. It was just like, oh, this is not a good thing to be, you know? Which if I, if I, if I look at it through the, through the, through the lens of that stage of development, you know, where do we go with information?
Like so something like that, that hits, that hits that hard? Well I can't speak for every, everyone who's ever been a tween, but I know me at that developmental stage when I, when I heard that I was too, that that was, that, that was something that I didn't, that I shouldn't be. Then, you know, where I, where I went with it was, it was shame and, you know, oh, you know, That's obviously a bad thing.
I'd better not be that anymore.
Tom Kaden: Well, there's several phrases that you used right there that I think are worth highlighting. First off, just that, that it stung to hear that because we would make an, our strong argument that being overly sensitive or maybe not even overly just sensitive is, is who you are as a person.
So there's, there is nothing wrong with it. But the fact that then the other phrase you use is that it hardened you. Talk a little bit more about how it hardened you and how that shaped you as you became a young adult.
Ken Mossman: Yeah, I think, I think I said I, I, I tried to harden myself and it didn't go well and to, to me, that, that's just, I, I, I, I, I, I tried to, you know, I went about trying to bury that, that sensitivity.
You know, to not show up that way to to withdraw, you know, to withdraw to, to really, to to, to go inside in, in, in search of some kind of protection, you know, some kind of impossible protection from the, from the outside world. And it wasn't, it, it's an interesting thing because looking back at it now, it's like, oh, okay.
You know what? It wasn't like I all of a sudden perceived the world as a quote unquote dangerous place. I didn't, you know, I didn't I, I, I saw, I saw the world as some this thing to be, to be explored and played with. But, but, but it's that, it's that piece of. That so many of us do, you know, in so many different ways of, of, of taking a part of self that's really core to my own essence, and tucking it away in a, in, in, somewhere in a dark corner.
So that was, that, that's what I mean by hard, by, that's what I mean by hardened. Like, I didn't, I didn't become, I didn't become a jerk. I didn't become a bully, if anything, quite, quite the opposite. I became I became really, you know, I, I, I had bumped up against the shy edge already, but I really did, you know, I, I really did retreat.
I, I thought of myself. And this isn't gonna be strange to anyone, but particularly, you know, that age, all, all the changes going on. If I wa, if I wasn't too sensitive, I kind of wondered who really cares at this point. At this point. If I would've had a slightly easier time relating to, relating to the girls.
But. I did okay.
Michael Gingerich: How much of this do you continue to struggle with?
Ken Mossman: All the sensitivity piece?
Michael Gingerich: Yeah, the sensitivity piece are, you know, reconciling that and being comfortable with that and not thinking of it as something bad or wrong to be you know, even, you know, as you, as you've matured and, and where you are today, is that, is it still sometimes a struggle?
Do you, do those voices still ring in your, in your, in your ear that you're too sensitive? Does that make sense? I mean, how, how does that manifest itself today?
Ken Mossman: Yeah, the question makes, yeah, the question makes total sense, Michael. The, so the, the short answer is the, the, the short answer is I think I've pretty much moved beyond that.
I. I see my sensitivity. I really do see my sensitivity as, as as a gift that I'm hugely grateful for, you know, 'cause along with that sensitivity goes access to intuition. Along with that sensitivity comes deep wells of, of, of, of empathy. You know, being able to feel with, you know, not, not dissolving into sympathy, but being able to feel with and witness you know, others and hold them.
And, and to me that is, man, that's the stuff of magic. It, it, it informs my, my my work and my perception of the world. Beautifully. It, it, it brings Now you'd have to ask my wife about this. But I, I but, but I think she would, she would agree that it, it brings a level of, of depth to it brings a level of depth to, to the relationship I have with my wife.
It certainly has created amazing bonds between myself and my, my, my one, my, my son, you know, my six children. My one son. It, there was something else I was gonna touch on here. Gimme a minute. Let me see if I recover it.
It's, it's, it, it's got Oh, oh, I remember. I remember. And I, I remember 'cause you, because you asked if there was still, you know, some bits and pieces of it lingering. One of the things that I'm aware of and, and this, and this is where it, it, it, it can be kind of a pain in the butt is that you know with the, with the, this being sensitive in, in this particular way is that there are, there are things that go on out in the world that, that I, I impact me a lot and, and, and what can happen is, you know, I can, I can be feeling something that, that comes outta nowhere, you know, that comes outta nowhere.
And I have to be really, really careful. About, about whether something that isn't mine has nothing to do with me. Yeah, it might be occurring in my world, but it's not mine to take ownership of. If, if I'm letting that in, personalizing it, making, making it my own, because that can be e e exhausting and, and wildly confusing if I don't hold hold that, that, that kind of energetic boundary.
So that's where it can, it can, that's where things can get a little bit dicey, but you know, the bigger picture of the, of the sensitivity. To come back to your question, Michael, is that it It is, it is, it is so core to who I am and so core to the work that I do in the world now that man, I would not, I, I wouldn't trade it for anything.
Michael Gingerich: I think we would say the very same thing. It is so core to the work that we do together as well and we, we wouldn't change it even though it's not always understood. It's not always appreciated, but we believe that it is it is our strength and want to use it and allow it to manifest itself or what we hope is to help bring about a better world.
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Tom Kaden: We'd love to talk a little bit about your work and how you've seen it just transform lives and impact a lot of lives in terms of people having permission to simply be themselves and express who they are.
Ken Mossman: Where, where, where should we start?
Tom Kaden: Well, maybe how about we start with maybe just a, a testimonial that you can remember of a time in the last few years where it was you were reminded once again, that being exactly who you are has helped inform and shape somebody else.
To be exactly who they are too.
Ken Mossman: Yeah. There's a, there's a, there's a few different things that come to mind. There's a lot that kind of kinda get there's, there's a lot that comes actually. So one of 'em is I'll, I'll, I'll, I'll do a, you know, I'll start with this. I, I do a program, I do a, I do a program for men, and it's called I am used to stand for the integrated adult man.
So I am, and you know, and, and, and it's a developmental walkthrough. It's very different from other men's work that I see out there, and that it's a developmental walkthrough that starts with, you know, go, going back and connecting with our own inner child, our inner adolescent, our inner young adult, inner masculine, inner feminine, all these, all these different aspects of self that many of us have been.
Taught, socialized, trained to, you know, vote off our own island in some way, shape or form. And my job is to, is to, is to work with men to bring those things back, to get in right relationship with 'em, to love 'em, to welcome 'em home, and to see them as the, as the really rich resources that they are.
And, and part of that work is is, is is diving deeply into, in, into the emotional realm to allow oneself to feel, to allow oneself to have their own emotions and to make friends with every single frequency on the emotional spectrum, on the emotional continuum. If you will not, and I wanna be really explicit about this, I.
Not for the purpose of feminizing men. That is not the work that I am about. Because I know that's, that's, that's some of the pushback that's happening around men's work right now. It's like we're trying to feminize No, we're not. Get over yourself. What we're doing is allowing what, what happens?
I'll talk about my work. You know, what, what, what the, the reason for all of that is to step into one's wholeness. So one of the things that I've seen over and over and over again in, in, in 10 cohorts of men who have been through the I Am program is. As literally as you can watch a man's heart open without being a cardiac surgeon.
You know, as much as you can see men's hearts open. As I've gotten to witness that time and time and time again, and I've gotten to witness you know, men who've been through, through, who've been through this program, get into right relationship and, and, and, and hear about how it's impact as they're getting into right relationship with all these different parts of themselves, the relationships that they're in, you know, with their partners, with their, with their, with their spouses, with their children, with the people they work with.
You know, those relationships start to change and, and that. You know, that I, that I point back to again, it's like, okay, you know, that's, that's, that's, that's some of the fruits of the these this being too sensitive. Not bad. I think there was another part of your question there, Tom. Did I get
Tom Kaden: No, I think you, yeah you started to have this dialogue around why you feel compelled to do the work that you do and it, it sounds like the, the ramifications of the work that you're doing is, is, is massive because it's, as we talked about earlier, it's you're going against a culture that hasn't historically allowed men in particular to to be vulnerable, to be real, to be authentic, to have permission to talk about things that are not so easy to talk about.
And I think more than anything, it's probably just a huge confirmation. An affirmation of the work that you're doing as well.
Ken Mossman: Yeah. Thank you. The, the, i I wanna address the, the, the client side of it too, because I've seen I've seen again and again and again, you know, men and clients connect with, you know, and, and we start out slow, you know it's not unusual for, for people to, for men to come to me and, and say, you know what?
I wanna learn to feel, you know, I wanna learn to feel and that's, that, that's a brave, brave thing for someone to be chasing after, you know, particularly the I, I work with a lot of men who are middle aged and for them to get to the first one for them to get to the point like, ah, wow, you know, maybe I should take another, maybe I should take another look at this whole emotional thing that was trained outta me.
But to learn to feel and really be able to take it from, from, from, from the ground up is, oh wow. You know, what an extraordinary privilege that is.
Michael Gingerich: Would you talk a little bit about what might be the catalyst for men's hearts to, that you've seen for men's hearts to open, as you say, what is part, where do you see that happening?
How does that happen? What do you do, what do you say to help that, to help that opening to occur?
Ken Mossman: Yeah. So let's start with the catalyst piece. Oftentimes the catalyst is, Is, is hitting some sort of a wall, hitting some sort of a wall. And it might be, I was gonna say it might be a relationship wall, but oftentimes it, it's, it's a relationship wall.
Now, that relationship might be in the workplace, that relationship might be at, at home with with partners, with children, that relationship might be an, an ex or a series of exes. And, and, and the, and the noticing of, of pattern behavior, you know, it's like, oh wow. You know an an example is an example that I, that I, that I love playing with is, you know, I, I am, I am surrounded, I am surrounded by idiots.
I'm just surrounded by idiots. They don't get anything that I'm trying, you know, I'm in this leadership position and you know, I'm, I'm dealing with idiot after idiot who just isn't, isn't capable of getting things right. And one of the first questions I ask at a circumstance like that is, well, you know, when you look at all these idiots what do they all have in common?
You know, is there a person perhaps that's central to all of this idiocy And and, and with about that much irreverence and, and if anyone is gonna, if typically if someone's gonna work with me, they're able to handle that question and to look and see Oh yeah. Oh, got it. Yeah. There's like, there's all these spokes of this wheel of idiocy, and I think I'm seeing that I'm the hub.
Yeah. It's like, great, there's a great place to start. You know, what are they perceiving? Because there was something of, so, so one of the walls, it's like, oh my god, you know, I'm actually being kind of a jerk or a complete jerk, or, you know, wow. You know so, so something along, something along those lines.
It, it could be the catalyst could be something like a failed relationship or a, a, a a lack of connection to, to, I mentioned kids a few times, but, you know, I just can't seem to connect with my children. I just can't seem to, I just can't seem to connect with my kids, you know? So oftentimes it's the doorway in, and this is where some of the IAM work influences, or I don't know, but I dunno whether it's the, I influence from the IAM work or influence from doing this, this work with men for such a long time that led to, to, I am taking the form.
It is, but It, it, it, it, it, it's, it. There's a moment of recognition that oh, oh, particularly with children. It's like, oh, oh my goodness. I am demanding that they meet me at my level of experience and sophistication, you know, when I am refusing to, to meet them. You know, you can't ask a four-year-old or an eight year old to become an, an, an, an instant adult and get why you are asking them to quiet down or to behave differently or to, you know, fill in the blanks.
But there's something that really cool that happens. Okay. You know, I have my own inner child. How would my own inner child feel about receiving the way I'm behaving right now as an adult? It's like, oh my God, they, they'd hate it. They'd be freaking out. It's like, just like my kid is right now. Okay, maybe I need to approach this differently.
So that's an important, you know, those, those, those, those, a moment like that can be a catalyzing moment. Like, oh, okay, how do I meet this child? Not in a way that's that's, that's, that's so bloody hands off that they, that the child doesn't have any guidance. But how can I meet this human being who happens to be my child where they are at their level of development?
You know, still showing up and still showing up as the adult in the, in the equation. Because oftentimes what we end up seeing, and I had this experience myself countless times before, it's like, oh my God. Now that two by four across the brow moment, it's like, oh my god. He, he can't, he can't connect with me the way I'm demanding he connects with me. I have to do the work. It's my job to do the heavy lifting here. Not to expect my, you know, 4, 5, 6, 8, 13 year old kid to do it. So that's another moment of that's another catalyzing. Those are other catalyzing moments. Yeah, adulthood is a sophisticated thing.
Tom Kaden: I had a huge smile on my face as you were telling that story about the comment that we're, we're surrounded by idiots.
I was thinking back to if you've seen the movie Spaceballs?
Ken Mossman: Yeah. Yeah.
Tom Kaden: Where he, he doesn't use the term idiots, but he said he know I'm surrounded by idiots. It's just a great scene. We've used it before just in some talks that we've given or things like that 'cause it's just a really humorous way of, sometimes as leaders we can all feel that way.
You know, but that's also important that we step away and, and, you know, kind of recenter, which is exactly what you're helping these, these folks to do. I know our time is probably winding down, but I, I know one question that I wanted to ask is, you know, as you look back you know, as we reflect more on this, this hour that we've had together and, and the story that you shared around the dinner table of being, you hearing this comment of being too sensitive, what would you want to say to our listeners today who maybe feel sometimes that they're being too sensitive?
That's the first part of the question. The second is, what, what would you wanna say to those folks like, who have come into your office who have asked that question, which is such a profound question. How do I feel again? Or how do I feel? What would you wanna say to those two communities? That could be as they're, they're on totally different ends of the spectrum in a lot of ways.
Ken Mossman: Yeah, that's such a good question. And, and again, I might remind me if I only answer one part of it to come back and answer the second part. So the first part to the folks who may or have heard, you know, you're too sensitive, the, again, my, my first and irreverent responses to, compared to what, you know, if you're hearing that from someone, you know, what's the ruler that they're using?
Where are they getting their, where are they getting their data? Oftentimes, not always, but oftentimes again, we hear that from, we, we hear that from people who have a hard time being around emotion or sensitivity, emotional sensitivity. So to those who are hearing that, they're too sensitive, you know, where, where I would, where I would point them is to, is.
To really is, is to look, and I know this isn't, this is simpler, this is gonna sound simpler than it's, I'm gonna say it's simple. It's not necessarily easy. But to, to, to, to take a good look at, at their own sensitivities and to look at, you know, what, what is powerful about this? You know, do I have a different kind of connection with empathy?
Do I have, do I have a different kind of connection and the people around me, by the way, do I have a different kind or a more powerful connection to an an, an open channel, if you will, to my own intuition? Do I come from love, perhaps more than the people around me. And then there's some, and, and, and then this is where it gets a little bit more complex.
Is that okay? Then there's some calculating to do. Am I am am I, am I in relationship with trusted agents or am I in relationship with people who are constantly judging me? You know, and there's some looking to be done. There's some looking to be done there. If I'm being met with, with, with judgment and being constantly put down for my sensitivity, you know, that, that that's something worth looking at and perhaps getting some, getting some help with.
The, the, the other piece I would add to that is, is, is, is is sometimes sensitive people, I mentioned this before and like the stuff of the world coming at, coming at me, you know, it, it's not unusual for people who are who, who are very sensitive and there's all sorts of work out in the world. And I'm not suggesting I, I'm not an ex, I'm not a, a a, an expert on highly sensitive people.
You know that. And you can find all sorts of great work out there on, on the interwebs about if, if one feels like they might including online tests to see if you're a highly sensitive person. So it might be worth looking at some of that, at, at some of that and, and finding out, and then being in conversation with other people who are also sensitive and finding out, you know, how are they navigating their world?
What what resources are available to you. And I'm gonna say the thing, not, the thing to not do with it is is to see it as some sort of of, of an insult or that or an indication that there's quote unquote something wrong with you. You know, if you're a sensitive person, you're simply sensitive.
Doesn't mean there's not, doesn't mean there's something wrong with you any more than someone who leans into rationale and logic is overly rational. Or logic. Or logical. That's, that's, that's their makeup. That's what makes this world such a cool place. It's like, takes all kinds, takes all kinds. So hopefully that, that, that gives someone a place, a place to a place to begin.
And the second part of the question.
Tom Kaden: I'll just make a quick comment about all of the, all of your response there. I think so many great messages in, in your response that we all, we all need to hear just being comfortable with who we are and, and I think what I was hearing is just being able to flip the script and not look at it as such a negative thing because I think there's just so much negativity around being who, who we are and and we could tell ourselves all kinds of lies.
So I think just flipping that script and, and learning to see the positive because those who are more sensitive, as you've mentioned, like we can make connections that other people just can't. We, we can feel with people that others might, it might not come as naturally so. The second part of my, my question though is just,
Ken Mossman: well, I wanna be, I wanna underline something that, and I wanna, I wanna, I wanna tweak actually something that you just said, and that is, and I, I'm very, I'm very I'm very suspect when the suspect, when the word just comes in, it's like, just flip the script.
Yeah.
Tom Kaden: We are too., yeah, yeah, yeah. Thanks for sanitizing that.
Ken Mossman: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because there's something about, there's something about, well, just, just if anyone who's anyone who's book,
Tom Kaden: I prefer the word simply.
Ken Mossman: Yeah. Simply because I, I think of the, the Book of Mormon, if you've seen the book of what great show, if you've seen The Book of Mormon, you know, just turn it off like a light switch doesn't work that way.
The, that, that, that, it takes some work to be able to, it takes effort, it takes attention, it takes awareness and, and, and, and a lot of conscious effort over time to, to, to do that flipping of the script. So the other piece that I would add to it is, you know, fast moving culture, fast moving culture is, is, is to, is to let, let go of the notion that this is something that's gonna happen in a second or overnight or in a week.
It, it, it, it, it, it takes, it takes applied practice. It takes applied practice.
Tom Kaden: Great. Great clarifications. So the sec the the second part of my question was just around what would you wanna say to those people who have come to you who said I, I just don't know how to feel.
Ken Mossman: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
Yeah. It's, again, it's a, it's, it, it's a process that takes time, energy, attention, awareness, focus, practice, practice, practice. And then some more time, energy, attention, awareness, focus, practice, practice, practice. And oftentimes we, where we begin, which, you know, when, when you look at when you look at emotion, there's, there's a lot of different components to it.
But typically emotion has there's, there's, there's, there's physical sensation, and then there's thought processes. That go along with those sensations. And sometimes they, you know, they kinda loop back and forth in a kind of an, an infinity loop pattern. And we start off super, super basic with things like, you know, hold, hold something in your hand, you know, start there, hold something in your hand.
Do you, you know, what are the, what are the sensations that you're feeling? Literally, you know, what are the sensations that you're feeling with your skin against this pen, against the thing that you're holding? Start there. And again, it seems, it seems really in, in many cases, you know, overly simplistic on the one hand.
And it's a place to start. And then we build from, from there. You know, when so and so said X, Y, Z to you.
What were the physical sensations that went along with that? What were the thoughts that went along with that? You know, and we can work our way, then we can work our way to developing language around emotion to be able to say, oh, okay, you know, that thing that I'm feeling right now, it's boredom. It's like, oh, okay.
The thing that I'm feeling right now is is I'm angry. You know, sometimes it's, wow. I I've been, I've been, I've been enraged for years and I'm just realizing it now. I've been outraged for years and I'm just realizing it now. Like, oh my God. I said, look, this thing that I've been feeling when I mentioned anger, like I, I, I, I, I, I, I've been unable to touch my, to touch my, to touch my joy.
I won't let myself go there. Or. This whole long-winded way of saying, you know, we take our take, take your time. Go slow. Start with noticing what you're thinking. Start with noticing what you are, you know, your physical sensations. Start noticing your, the language that you use around around around emotion.
Because you might not know what you feel. You might not be able to name the emotion, but typically we can name physical sensations. Like, wow, you know, when you said that my, I just felt my jaw go tight, or I noticed that I stopped breathing and I'm, I held my breath. That's a great start. You know, from there it was like, okay, and, and, and I started thinking some pretty nasty thoughts about you in that moment that you said X, Y, Z.
It's like, great, you know, good. That's, those are, those are, those are all doorways in to begin to, to begin to feel, to begin to develop first, you know, first some emotional literacy. You know, can I, can I interpret? Can I talk about these things? Can I develop the language Now, can I, 'cause we all can with very few exceptions, I know there are some exceptions, but with very few exceptions, you know, we can all develop emotional literacy.
We can move to developing emotional fluency. From that literacy we can move to developing emotional fluency, emotional flexibility you know, moving our way into, into becoming, you know, truly emotionally intelligent there. I see Emotionally brilliant. Just takes time. It takes time. Just takes time.
It takes freaking time. Absolutely. As we close, just one final question for you. You use the phrase, touch their joy. What touches your joy? Can you, wow. Oh. Seeing the, the man that my son has become, that touches my joy sitting down to a great meal that, that, that, that I'm gonna say that we've prepared together.
'cause oftentimes we do my wife and I touches, touches to, you know, that, that definitely, you know, pops the Joy Cork there. My wife and I just traveled together for the first time in ages, just for the sake of being out on the road. Together. Yeah, it was a reconnaissance trip of sorts, but we didn't have anywhere to go for work, aside from driving past one building.
And, and, and being out and traveling with my beloved spending time, you know she and I just, just hanging out, not even talking, just being together. It's like, yeah, there's some, there's, there's, there's joy there. Family, all you can hear. A lot of this is family. Being in the presence of great art and, and, and, and music watching a, you know, watching a group of men come to life on the other side of a zoom screen.
Boy there's a, there's a, there, there's a lot watching my clients blossom and make amazing progress and do cool world changing things, all that. There's a lot I could go on hummingbirds. Geez, hummingbirds.
Tom Kaden: Well, thanks for, thanks for making us come alive through the Zoom screen today.
Michael Gingerich: You touched our joy mm-hmm.
With this conversation, so we wanna thank you for that. It's, it's been tremendous. I think we could go on and on and on and keep talking, keep asking questions, keep listening. But we thank you so much for the connection that we've made together with you. We thank you for speaking our language so many ways that means a lot to us.
So we're so grateful to have had this conversation with you today.
Ken Mossman: Yeah. Thank, thank you so much, so much gratitude. And I, I would be remiss if I didn't close knowing how much this means that if I didn't close by saying Tom and Michael, I am proud of you.
Michael Gingerich: Hmm. Thank you. Thank you.
We hope you enjoyed this conversation with us and with Ken today. We we really hit on some very personal things for all three of us. So the feelings that we've had, things we've been told, ways in which we also realize we operate in, in the world. And, you know, when it talks about sensitivity in particular and, and what that means, and understanding sensitivity as a, as something that is very powerful and can open up the world in many ways when we are able to use it, use it well, and use it freely.
So we're just glad you could join us and we hope that this, that this conversation sparked something in you as well as you heard the conversation and as you reflect on the things, everything that was said.
Tom Kaden: And if you yourself just need permission to feel, we want to give that space to you here at someone to tell it to you.
That's one of the things that we pride ourselves on, is giving everyone a space, a safe space to express all of the human emotions that we may have inside of us. So we encourage you to go to our website, someone to tell, to.org if you'd like to learn more about our work. And we always encourage you, if you could think of five other people in your networks who would value this episode, this conversation, or any of our episodes, please share those conversations with others.
So, thanks again for being with us today until we listen again.
